What drives Trump? Fear of losing status, tapes show
ASSOCIATED PRESS
Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump speaks in Boynton Beach, Fla., Monday.
By Michael Barbaro
New York Times
By any measure, Arsenio Hall was a Hollywood success: He had starred in popular films, packed houses as a stand-up comic and hosted a hit late-night television show bearing his name.
Donald Trump saw it differently by the mid-2000s. In his eyes, Hall was nothing.
“Dead as a doornail,” was his assessment of Hall in a previously unreleased interview from two years ago. “Dead as dog meat.”
Why such a harsh judgment? Because in Trump’s eyes, Hall had suffered the most grievous form of public humiliation: His celebrity had waned. His star had dimmed.
It was, in short, Trump’s worst nightmare.
“Couldn’t get on television,” Trump said with disgust. “They wouldn’t even take his phone call.”
The intense ambitions and undisciplined behaviors of Trump have confounded even those close to him, especially as his presidential campaign comes to a tumultuous end, and he confronts the possibility of the most stinging defeat of his life. But in the more than five hours of conversations — the last extensive biographical interviews Trump granted before running for president — a powerful driving force emerges: his deep-seated fear of public embarrassment.
The recordings reveal a man who is fixated on his own celebrity, anxious about losing his status and contemptuous of those who fall from grace. They capture the visceral pleasure he derives from fighting, his willful lack of interest in history, his reluctance to reflect on his life and his belief that most people do not deserve his respect.
In the interviews, Trump makes clear just how difficult it is for him to imagine — let alone accept — defeat.
“I never had a failure,” Trump said in one of the interviews, despite his repeated corporate bankruptcies and business setbacks, “because I always turned a failure into a success.”
The interviews were conducted in 2014 by Michael D’Antonio, a Pulitzer Prize-winning reporter who later wrote a biography of Trump called “The Truth About Trump.”
D’Antonio now disapproves of Trump’s candidacy and gave transcripts of the interviews to Hillary Clinton’s campaign this year. After a brief meeting with a few Clinton aides, he said, he never heard back from Clinton’s staff.
Over the past few weeks, D’Antonio gave The New York Times access to the original audio as well as transcripts of his interviews with Trump, Trump’s first wife, Ivana, and his three oldest children. The Times is using them as the basis for this article and a two-part episode of its election podcast, “The Run-Up.”
Trump, in a statement on Monday night, called the recordings “Pretty old and pretty boring stuff. Hope people enjoy it.”
In the interviews, which occurred in Trump’s office and apartment in Trump Tower in Manhattan, he is by turns animated and bored, boastful and stubborn when prodded toward soul-searching. “No, I don’t want to think about it,” he said when D’Antonio asked him to contemplate the meaning of his life. “I don’t like to analyze myself because I might not like what I see.”
Despite his reluctance, Trump reveals himself over and over, in the stories he tells, in his wide-ranging answers to questions and at times in casual, seemingly throwaway lines.
Who does he look up to? “I don’t have heroes,” Trump said.
Does he examine history to better understand the present? “I don’t like talking about the past,” he said, later adding, “It’s all about the present and the future.”
Who earns his respect? “For the most part,” he said, “you can’t respect people because most people aren’t worthy of respect.”
His lavish lifestyle? “I could be very happy in a one-bedroom,” he said, motioning at his vast penthouse apartment. “I don’t need this — three floors.”
His struggle to balance work and love? “It’s very hard for somebody to be married to me,” he said.
But he always seems to return, in one form or another, to the theme of humiliation.
He reserves special scorn for people who embarrass themselves in front of their peers. He tells the story of an unnamed bank president who became inebriated during an award dinner at the Waldorf Astoria hotel in Manhattan, a ritual of New York society. By the end of the night, he recalls, the man was incapable of walking and had to be carried out, to Trump’s disapproval.
DONALD TRUMP: … We all had a leg, an arm, a back, and we carried him out of the room that night, right after he made the worst speech you’ve ever heard. And I never looked at him the same way after that. …
I’ll never forget that in front of a room of the most important people, we had to carry him out of the room. And so things like that had an impact on me.
There is little trace of sympathy or understanding. When people lose face, Trump’s reaction is swift and unforgiving.
And when Trump feels he has been made a fool of, his response can be volcanic. Ivana Trump told D’Antonio about a Colorado ski vacation she took with Trump soon after they began dating. The future Mrs. Trump had not told her boyfriend that she was an accomplished skier. As she recalls it, Trump went down the hill first and waited for her at the bottom:
IVANA TRUMP: So he goes and stops, and he says, “Come on, baby. Come on, baby.” I went up. I went two flips up in the air, two flips in front of him. I disappeared. Donald was so angry, he took off his skis, his ski boots, and walked up to the restaurant. … He could not take it. He could not take it.
He had been bested in public. As he stormed off the slope, leaving behind a trail of equipment, she recalled, Donald Trump could not contain his embarrassment.
“I’m not going to do this,” she recalled him saying, “for anybody, including Ivana.”
Lust for Fighting
On the tapes, Donald Trump describes a passionate enjoyment of fighting, which started during his adolescence in Queens. It did not matter, he said, whether an altercation was verbal or physical. He loved it all the same.
TRUMP: I was a very rebellious kind of person. I don’t like to talk about it, actually. But I was a very rebellious person and very set in my ways.
INTERVIEWER: In eighth grade?
TRUMP: I loved to fight. I always loved to fight.
INTERVIEWER: Physical fights?
TRUMP: Yeah, all kinds of fights, physical …
INTERVIEWER: Arguments?
TRUMP: All types of fights. Any kind of fight, I loved it, including physical. …
His behavior was so belligerent that his parents sent him off around age 13 to the all-boys New York Military Academy, a highly regimented school about an hour north of Manhattan. He seemed to revel in the masculine culture of confrontation there. In the interview, he sounds nostalgic for the time when roughness and physical conflict were more acceptable:
TRUMP: I’m standing there at the military academy and this guy comes out, he’s like a bulldog, too, rough guy. He was a drill sergeant. Now they call him “Major Dobias,” but he was a sergeant. When I first knew him, he was “Sergeant Dobias,” right out of the Army.
And he was a rough guy, physically rough and mentally rough. He was also my baseball coach. He said things like, “Stand up!” and I went, “Give me a [expletive] break.” And this guy came at me, you would never believe it. I mean, it was really fantastic.
INTERVIEWER: Did he rough you up?
TRUMP: Oh yeah, absolutely.
INTERVIEWER: Grabbed you by the shirt …
TRUMP: It doesn’t matter, it was not like what happens today. And you had to learn to survive. It was tough. It wasn’t today. Those were rougher times. … These guys, you go back to some of those old drill sergeants, they can’t even understand what’s going on with this country.
Obsession With Media
He is intoxicated by the glow of his name in the news media, a subject he brings up repeatedly in the interviews.
He can still recall the thrill of a newspaper mentioning his name for the first time, as a high school baseball player whose performance had clinched his team’s victory.
TRUMP: And I said, “I love it.” I loved it. It was the first time I was ever in a newspaper. I was a young kid, right? I was probably a sophomore in high school. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that. I thought it was amazing. … It felt good.
He was hooked. But it was not enough for Trump to become an object of media fascination. He took pleasure in knowing that such coverage was denied to almost everybody else.
When D’Antonio said that it was exciting for anybody to be mentioned in a newspaper, a seemingly wounded Trump interrupted to explain why his experience was special.
“Well, most people aren’t in print, though. Don’t forget. How many people are in print?” he asked. “Nobody’s in print.”
Trump refused to let the subject go, emphasizing over and over how unique it was that he had been mentioned in the newspaper.
Fear of Being Forgotten
Ultimately, Trump fears — more than anything else — being ignored, overlooked or irrelevant.
That’s how he saw Arsenio Hall in the 2000s, as forgotten and ungrateful for his time on “The Celebrity Apprentice,” Trump’s reality television competition, which Hall won in 2012.
During his final interview with D’Antonio, as their relationship had warmed and deepened, Trump turned philosophical. He recalled a favorite song, performed by Peggy Lee, “Is That All There Is?” — a poignant ballad about unfulfilled dreams and dissatisfaction with life.
TRUMP: It’s a great song because I’ve had these tremendous successes and then I’m off to the next one. Because, it’s like, “Oh, is that all there is?” That’s a great song actually, that’s a very interesting song, especially sung by her, because she had such a troubled life.
But he quickly retreats from the moment, declining D’Antonio’s invitation to further explain how the song makes him feel about himself, saying he might not like what he discovers.
Of this, however, Trump is certain: He needs the world’s attention and its embrace, a life force that has sustained him for decades.
He recalled the feeling of walking into a giant room and watching as the crowd surrounded him, as if he were a magnet attracting everything around him.
D’Antonio asked him when that first started. “Long time ago,” Trump replied. “It’s always been that way.”
Did it ever unnerve him, the author wondered.
“No,” Trump said. “I think what would unnerve me is if it didn’t happen.”
36 responses to “What drives Trump? Fear of losing status, tapes show”
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Quite sad, actually. How inwardly lonely and empty his life must be. He may have lots of “stuff”, but his existence seems so hollow and lacking in genuineness.
What Michael Moore has to say about Donald Trump:
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Trump has bankrupted so many times he is probably used to being a big loser several times over.
CNN Anderson Cooper just played a tape of him saying that he is the same person that he was in the first grade. The tape is from Michael DiAntonio who wrote his biography. Do we really want a president who has the mentality of a first grader?
I don’t know of anyone on the planet who isn’t the same person they were in the 1st grade. At least it would have made more sense if you substituted maturity for mentality. Do you really want a president who can’t/won’t protect classified information?
Do you really want Trump’s finger hovering over the button? I’m not a Hillary fan, but…
How the Elites Blew Up the World
Those who squandered America’s economic and strategic advantage are trying to distract from their record
by Laura Ingraham | Updated 25 Oct 2016 at 8:05 PM
Let us be clear: If Hillary Clinton is elected president, all of the problems we see around the world today will continue to fester — because she will continue the same policies that got us here. Four years from now, if she is president, the United States will be weaker, China will be stronger, Russia will be more dangerous, terrorists will be more emboldened, the Middle East will be more unstable, and conditions in Europe will be worse than they are now. We already know that our current policies lead to these results. Why would we want to let things worsen for four more years?
The time has come to strike out on a different path. When you look past all the elite blather about Trump’s “temperament” and “tone,” one thing becomes obvious: On the big foreign policy issues facing America, Trump is right, and the elites are wrong. It is insane — and dangerous — to keep propping up a global trading regime that treats Chinese companies better than American companies. It is insane — and dangerous — to keep wasting the U.S. military on missions that cannot succeed. It is insane — and dangerous — to continue trying to maintain a position in the world that we can no longer afford. It is insane — and dangerous — to tear down all borders and effectively dissolve the nations of the West. Most of all, it is insane to install, as president of the United States, a vapid and untrustworthy politician who has consistently been wrong on every major foreign policy issue of the last 20 years.
Hillary Clinton may win this election. But Trump and his supporters will ultimately win the argument over foreign policy — because his policies at least have a chance of making the world better, while hers never will.
Trump Verses CNN Anderson Cooper? who’s parents bought him a real life fire station for his birthday present? VS:
Donald Trump. Who’s dad gives him a million dollar for his business,who turns his business into a world class powerhouse company!
This is your source?Anderson Cooper? Really?
You can bet! I do want a first grader mentality president? A successful Billionaire,with Hotels all over the world? Who will not take a presidenyial salary?
Hell Yeah,waaaaay better a Corrupt,Criminal/Thief/Lyer/ Purger/ and an enabling rapist who will be strolling the WH again ?if and I say IF Hillary wins. Which,I doubt .
Almost like a Shakespearean tragedy… But more like a comedy of errors.
Sorry, Donald, didn’t mean to hurt your feelings.
Hey, hey, hold on guys; now the strong rumor that the donald might be interested in the TV business, called donald tv, and his motto; “make tv great again.”
and he is only interested in this tv deal if he’s not elected, President. So more than likely…….
What the heck is this? It’s long, meandering, pointless, and desperate. Nobody knows or cares who Arsenio Hall is. The closer it gets to the election the more undignified the media becomes.
I don’t see how you can call it desperate if Trump is failing at the polls.
Yeah, it’s desperate. Trump has been getting the full court press from the gutless media since he became the nominee. Yet he continues to show resiliency and is neck and neck with her in polls that don’t over-sample democrats. She should be 20 points ahead right now and she’s not. Why? Because nobody likes her and the pass she got from the FBI/DoJ left a very bad taste in the mouths of many people among other things.
Ok, well I’ guess we’ll see in two weeks if your conspiracy theory about sampling holds true. So, go ahead and rage on…it will make your election result silence all the more deafening later.
By the way, why would anyone actually over sample to fake poll results, why not just plug in whatever data you want? Faking it is faking it.
Hello, there are more registered D voters in all swing states concerned, so it stands to reason the sample will lean D. That is one of the reasons why the LA Times polling is suspectly viewed and not utilized in cumulative polling averages.
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@CEI, the Arsenio Hall anecdote was merely used to illustrate Trump’s fear of losing status. You have a tendency also to over generalize, like saying “nobody” likes Clinton. Obviously someone does or she wouldn’t be doing as well as she is. You should check out the “2016 Scorecard” that Chris Snyder of Fox News tweeted out yesterday; it projects a Clinton win of 307 electoral votes to Trump’s 174. That’s not counting the 57 votes in the toss up states; even if Trump got them all he still wouldn’t win. These are Fox’s stats, they’re not going to over sample dems. Even Trump’s campaign mgr, Kellyanne C, said “We are behind.” What was really surprising about the Fox map was that they have Arizona, and Utah as toss up states; in other years they’re solid red. Even Texas, Georgia, and Indiana aren’t solid red, but only “leaning” red. I don’t think SA lets you post links/pics in the comments, but you could find this graphic by looking at Synder’s posts on twitter, he’s @ChrisSnyderFox. You don’t have to “follow” him to look up his tweets.
“And the White House on Thursday advised that Trump continue to steer clear of the president’s wife, suggesting that an unprecedented attack on the first lady is a surefire way for the GOP nominee’s standing to plummet further.”
Well, Eric Schultz (and presumably Barack Obama), here is what you can do with your warning. Donald Trump’s statements, which were probably empty boasts in contrast to Bill Clinton’s well-known behavior, were indeed lewd and unacceptable. While two wrongs do not make a right, Michelle and Barack Obama have openly promoted rap artists who glorify misogyny, sexual objectification of women, and even date rape. That’s right; I am indeed calling out our country’s sorry excuse for a First Lady for her and her husband’s deplorable legitimization of the most despicable misogynistic language on earth.
Didn’t you see the SNL skit? The one where Trump explains that the media makes him look bad by “taking everything I say, and everything I do, and putting it on TV.”
What don’t you understand about that? Maybe you should go move to Gina (It’s spelled China but the correct pronunciation is “Gina”).
I care that you are ending sentences in prepositions–very lazy and awkward.
The Clinton Gang and all their cohorts are so arrogant and snobbish. I would still love to see the look on Hellary’s face should she lose. I would welcome the freekin chaos that Trumpo would create with the status quo. Who are the other two guys running for Potus? Maybe?…….
That’s some good playground mentality you got going on there; you fit right in to the Trump camp.
Hmmm, Arrogant and snobbish fits you well. That is some Clinton gang mentality you got going there.
Maybe, I am a bit arrogant. Pretty happy with the status quo, it’s done pretty well by me. I’m not even close to the 1%, but hey what the heck.
This is a classic example of a narcissist, with his excessive need for attention and adoration. His inability to handle any kind of criticism, a total disregard for others’ feelings and callousness towards anyone else would not bode well for an office requiring a concern for the welfare of constituents. This is what responsible republicans are now horrified to find they have.
It’s no secret his campaign staff is frustrated and scratching their heads, as he goes off topic daily, gets into childish conflicts with a anyone and everyone, and can’t sit down to learn facts about “his” own policies.
Every so often he’ll be humbled by plummeting polls and will agree to speak off a teleprompter. Then he looks like a 4th grade boy who got caught and has to say a canned apology he doesn’t mean. Until he breaks free of the teleprompter and shows the world again what am ldiot he really is.
Small mind with a small bo$o, equals an equally small man.
The Midwest, once thought as the potential savior to Trumps electoral fortunes, is now dead. Only Ohio remains, and that is teetering to now go to HRC.
Donald Trump once looked capable of turning the Rust Belt red.
Now, two weeks before Election Day, his best hope is to turn it a lighter shade of blue. His prospects have dwindled down to just one industrial swing state — Ohio — and even that is no longer the comfortable bet for Trump it appeared to be as recently as a month ago.
Read more: http://www.politico.com/story/2016/10/trump-confronts-rust-belt-rejection-230319#ixzz4OCYlcmhm
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Getting back into the White House is the least of Hillary Clinton’s worries. Hillary and her associates are panicking how to stay out of the Big House.
It is over, Donald J. Trump will be the 45th POTUS.
Oh, I’m so sorry for you.
Worried about being embarrassed? I don’t think Trump needs to be concerned about that. It’s way beyond embarrassment. After this election he will go down in history as the worst candidate in US history. His “Trump” brand will be forever tarnished.
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Vote for Trump.