Did a delay in police response give shooter more time?
ASSOCIATED PRESS
An injured person is escorted out of the Pulse nightclub after a shooting rampage, Sunday morning in Orlando, Fla.
ASSOCIATED PRESS
Orlando Police Chief John Mina describes the details of the fatal shootings at the Pulse Orlando nightclub during a media briefing today in Orlando, Fla.
As the largest mass shooting in modern U.S. history began to unfold, an off-duty police officer working at a gay nightclub exchanged gunfire with the suspect. But three hours passed before a SWAT team stormed the building and brought the attack to an end.
The decision by law enforcement to hold off on entering the Pulse club — where more than 100 people were shot, 49 of them killed — immediately raised questions among experts in police tactics. They said the lessons learned from other mass shootings show that officers must get inside swiftly — even at great risk — to stop the threat and save lives.
“We live in a different world. And action beats inaction 100 percent of the time,” said Chris Grollnek, an expert on active-shooter tactics and a retired police officer and SWAT team member.
The gunman, Omar Mateen, first had a shootout with the off-duty officer at the club’s entrance. Then two other officers arrived and the firing continued.
The situation changed from an active-shooter scenario to a hostage situation once Mateen made it into one of the bathrooms where club-goers were hiding, authorities said.
Experts say there’s a big difference between responding to a lone gunman and a shooter who has hostages.
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In active-shooter situations, police are now trained to respond immediately, even if only one or two officers are available to confront the suspect. In a hostage crisis, law enforcement generally tries to negotiate.
Orlando Police Chief John Mina said the presence of hostages required officers to “reevaluate, reassess what is happening and make sure all the pieces are in place.”
From the restroom, Mateen called 911 and made statements pledging allegiance to the Islamic State. That’s when the shooting stopped and hostage negotiators began talking with him, the chief said.
“We had a team of crisis negotiators that talked to the suspect, trying to get as much information as possible, what we could do to help resolve the situation … He wasn’t asking a whole lot, and we were doing most of the asking,” Mina said.
Mateen soon began talking about explosives and bombs, leading Mina to decide about 5 a.m. to detonate an explosive on an exterior wall to prevent potentially greater loss of life. The explosives did not penetrate the wall completely, so an armored vehicle was used to punch a 2-foot-by-3-foot hole in the wall about 2 feet from the ground.
“We knew there would be an imminent loss of life,” Mina said.
Hostages started running out, as did Mateen, who was killed in a shootout with SWAT team members. It turned out there were no explosives.
Police tactics changed after the 1999 massacre at Columbine High School, where the first officers to arrive exchanged fire with the gunmen but then stopped and waited for the SWAT team. That took 45 minutes. By then, Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold had killed 12 students and a teacher.
At the time, the standard police practice was to set up a perimeter, wait for SWAT officers and then go inside. Authorities began to realize that the delayed response gave suspects more time to kill.
“We can’t just let him have free rein and continue to shoot,” said Ben Tisa, a former FBI agent and former SWAT team member.
Experts point to other mass shootings where a delay in confronting the shooter probably gave the gunman time to maneuver and attack. A mass shooting in 1984 at a McDonald’s in San Ysidro, California, offered one of the earliest lessons, with 21 people being killed and 19 wounded before a SWAT team killed the gunman about 45 minutes later.
Incorrect or incomplete information is typical during police emergencies. And the gravity of the decisions is not lost on SWAT teams and their commanders. Civilian lives are at risk, along with those of police officers who are often outgunned by suspects.
“You have split seconds,” said Thor Eells, commander of the Colorado Springs Police Department and chairman of the board of the National Tactical Officers Association.
Almost immediately after the shooting began, the nightclub posted a note on its Facebook page telling people to get out and “keep running.”
Grollnek, a consultant who conducts active-shooter training for law enforcement, said that’s another lesson from other mass shootings: Civilians can’t expect to stay safe by heeding the old advice to hide or shelter in place.
“The problem is we’re failing to evolve by learning the lesson that hiding does not work,” he said. “Running works. Everyone who escapes to tell their story says, ‘I ran away. I heard a noise on my left, and I went to my right and I got out.’”
But Grollneck reserved his anger for the police commanders in Florida who didn’t allow SWAT team members to enter until several hours after the shooter began the attack.
“How have we failed so poorly that we did not learn our lesson … when we see SWAT teams respond and not making entry creates victims,” he said. “Period. End of story.”
41 responses to “Did a delay in police response give shooter more time?”
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Either way, the police are going to be blamed. If the shooter takes hostages and the SWAT Team goes in and kills the suspect, they’ll be criticized in the media for “not negotiating” with the suspect in a hostage situation. If they try to negotiate with the shooter, they’ll be criticized in the media for putting innocent people at risk by not making entry. Unreal……
Typical for the country we live in. The lawyers are going to have a field day with this one.
Which one of the local police departments are you on?
Which law firm to you work for?
You can’t negotiate with an islamic terrorist and they knew he was one. To wait 3 hours before moving on him probably cost some people their lives. You can’t reason with a religion fueled nut prepared to martyr himself. Negotiating with him was senseless and calls into question the competency of the police chief. This Muslim terrorist never intended to survive the attack on this club.
So collateral damage (kill) is acceptable?
No, but minimizing the number of deaths is the objective. Hesitation in this case probably was the single most significant reason so many were killed by the lone shooter/terrorist/murderer.
I would like to think that saving lives is the main objective but I
every situation is the same. Hence, the delay. If it was standard procedures to just enter with guns a lazing, then the police failed but I do not think we have a policy that covers every situation.
Always gotta have Monday Morning Quarterbacks
Suggest reading as least as far as the third sentence before commenting. If you had done that, you would know that this story reports the reactions of “experts in police tactics,” not Monday morning quarterbacks.
” Monday morning QB” is a colloquialism that refers to people who second-guess after the fact. It has nothing to do with their qualifications.
suggest turning on your bsdetector. JKertis shouldn’t have to draw a picture for you.
experts who weren’t there in the moment are just critics. shoulda, coulda, woulda. bullcrap
Wow! Good defense kid!
to littlyoboboy: you got it right!!! People always second guessing or making comments after the fact…just sickening……
yes, the police did take time to arrive with swat and then more time to effect their entry. it’s not easy to deal with a well armed active shooter.
an unknown shooter in close quarters with hundreds of people in attendance multiplies the unknowns police need to resolve before risking the deaths of all hostages present. police also need to guard against secondary and tertiary i.e.d. possibilities in the response area.
swat is not a device that responds and arrives in a few minutes at the scene. once the alert goes out the members need time to detach from whatever they were doing and then respond to the scene and suit up. they are not sitting around the station in full gear waiting to be dispatched.
facing an unknown floor plan filled with hostages and an unknown number of shooters, the police needed to gather raw intel to develop an entry strategy. it takes time. in this event it is likely that any arriving police rushing into the bar would have been cut down immediately.
orlando police will be examining every second from the time of the first 9-1-1 call to the last shot fired at the scene. they will continue to tweak their active shooter response when they review their actions. all police departments are now reviewing this incident and refining their active shooter responses.
wonder how many people were killed and/or wounded by friendly fire?
Keep wondering, you are giving Aiea a bad name.
Who’s the idiot that’s even bringing this up? There is no correct answer. On a side note, I was watching the news today, both Fox and MSNBC. I do this to get the left and right point of views. Much to my surprise, when I turned on MSNBC, who do I see, but non other than Brian Williams. Say what you want about Fox, but why would MSNBC bring this liar on board?
Lyin’ Brian works for MSNBC. Wait a year, he’ll report that he was there. He might even shed a tear or two.
LOL
Just shoot him in the head with a sniper rifle or bust into the bathroom.
I saw a picture of a Kevlar helmet worn by an Orlando police officer that was damaged by gunfire by the officer was not killed. The helmet is evidence of the dangers faced by the officers, I think monday morning quarterbacking by those who were not there is inappropriate.
Agree, second guessing death issues are not appropriate. Decisions are not for faint of heart. Lives matter! No thanks, am glad I was not in that profession.
thank you cheeseball. some people always think they know better. too much video games ! this is real life !
Police need to change their tactics. They need to storm in right away and not give the gunmen time to barricade themselves and to search out and kill their victims at their leisure.
These devout islamist killers are not interested in negotiating, just killing as many as they are able. The 3 hour delay is inexcusable as this means that those who were wounded
but then died could possible been saved if medical aid could have been provided as soon as possible.
Police SWAT tactics continue to be behind the curve which makes no sense given all the incidents we have had over the past few years from mass shootings by islamist killers and other
psychos. If there is no change in tactics, many will die needlessly.
Blame lawyers if you think police SWAT teams in this country operate behind the curve. Ask FBI HRT agent how he felt after shooting Vicki Weaver at Ruby Ridge, then got charged for murder by Idaho. Only reason case fell off the earth, Idaho State Attorney General retired, State did not want to purse. Whole different set of rules when policing in America.
Usually tactical officers want Intel on how many suspects, what kind of firepower they have, where are they located, their physical descriptions, what type of clothing they’re wearing….how many hostages they have and other details before storming blindly in where they may accidentally kill some of the hostages by mistake…..
Yes, while they are doing all of that, the Islamic killers will have a field day with their victims. Rapid response is necessary. It should not be difficult to
determine who the hostages are and who the the killers,, the killers will have guns and be shooting. Police had more guts back in the day.
Today, they seem more interested in protecting themselves, despite the fact that they all wear body armor and are armed with shotguns and AR-16, yeah
“assault weapons”. All the armor, heavy guns and armored vehicles and special training cannot take the place of old fashioned guts and bravery.
So you’re saying that today’s officers lack old fashion guts and bravery??…..btw..what SWAT team did you serve on?….
“Today, they seem more interested in protecting themselves, . . . ”
police do not have a legal duty to protect any individual from harm from another individual. neither do they have a legal duty to sacrifice their lives for you or anyone else. that many do sacrifice their lives or risk injury to protect the public is due to the dedication and commitment of police officers to serve their community.
most police departments are not going to recklessly force an assault into an unknown situation with hostages involved.
st1d you are absolutely right. Again from dimming memory, I believe it was 10 years ago a SCOTUS ruling stated that law enforcement has no constitutional duty to protect any one. Liberals seem to want to deny us the power to protect ourselves though.
Obviously the decision to negotiate did “give the shooter more time” — but in this case he apparently didn’t use the added time to take more lives.
It’s certainly possible to make the argument that, in general, delaying the police assault does risk costing more lives. I’m not going to argue that point.
However, this time the point is moot because the shooter didn’t, in fact, take advantage of the delay.
Easy to second guess, but remember they thought he had a bomb or explosive vest.
Regular patrol officers, the first responders, should be able to react to an active shooter. Clear the area up to the shooter, wait for more back up. If suspect is barracaded or cornered, arriving units can evacuate wounded victims. 3 hrs. Is ridiculous. Switch scenerio, daytime daycare center with 100 children, and I bet you the officers would go.
I believe they saw batteries and thought they were linked to explosives (they were from fire alarms or some such) so they delayed going in. In some countries terrorists use a one-two punch, set off the first one, wait for the police and EMTs to arrive, then blow the second. A whole lot of wounded or dead officers and medics wouldn’t help much.
In other countries?
Was the off-duty officer at the entrance of the club killed? What about the two other officers who arrived and engaged in a shootout? Why didn’t these officers take him out?
Is the gun shops here sell the same or similar assault rifles with almost unlimited amounts of bullets coming out? I hope not. Somebody help us before its us.
Most LEO’s are not dumb. They will assess the situation and tactically formulate a plan before going in and risking their lives. I think in a night club, there is not much cover and concealment to tactically go after the bad guy and would be suicide to enter without a sound plan.
When will there a head to toe bulletproof Hazmat suit on the market for the public? Or somebody can become a multi millionaire by inventing an invisible force field.